God Gives and Takes Away
I found this comment I left on a friend’s blog awhile ago in response to being challenged on the notion God gives and takes away. My friend’s blog comments crashed when I posted it, so I thought I’d repost most of it here and see if anyone had any thoughts.
Strap yourselves in, its a doozie (and stinkin long too)…
…I’ll put all my cards on the table. I am neither a full blown Calvinist or Arminian. I think people who say the choice is solely ours to make in approaching God have a limp-wristed view of God. I think those who say God chooses the ultimate fate of all and condemns people to hell without a shot at knowing him have a very simplistic view of God that I am not willing to hold to.
I serve an almighty powerful God who is at all times sovereign, loving, good and just. (plus more adjectives I am too tired to write)…
As far as I know the view that God both gives and takes away comes from Job 1 after all the stuff hits the fan in his life, and I will quote it here to help shed light on this. Vs. 20-22:
At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Note verse 22- Job did not charge God with wrongdoing. Scripture teaches it isn’t wrong for God to take away, and it does not state Job was wrong in saying that He does. So the idea that a loving God would be in the wrong if He took away is refuted quite simply here.
As for the idea that God only wants to bless us and will not send calamity our way- I see that as a partial truth. God does love us, but God also disciplines his sons and daughters. That discipline looks different for each of us and who am I to say if God should allow someone to be afflicted with a hardship, that it is only due to a lack of faith on their part. I think that is a very simplistic view indeed.
But one might suggest “the promises of God are yes and Amen.” (2 Cor. 1:20) Said person might also gives examples like Jeremiah 29:11 and Deuteronomy 28 (you’ll have to look those up yourselves if you don’t know them.) But the funny thing about most of those “prosperity” promises is that they are almost always made in the context of a PEOPLE, not an individual.
How arrogant we (me the worst of all) sometimes get. Thinking that God is totally consumed with our individualistic wants and “needs.” I, as a rule, think we as Americans are pretty stupid and believe we need much more than we actually do. For me to think that because of my faith God gives me more than others is a little slippery. Financial and physical blessing is not the best indicator of faith.
All that being said, we should all search our heart and become who God has created us to be and do the things He has called us to. If God has called you to die for the Gospel, great. If God has called you to be a billionaire and bless others, great. If God has called you to sell it all and move to the hills of Uganda and translate the Bible, great. If God has called you to flip burgers for the rest of your life to impact the lives of teenagers- never making more than the bills you have to pay, then you sure as heck better do it. It is not for you to decide, but to be faithful with what you have been called to do.
…I will land this plane by giving some personal examples. I have known several God-fearing, H.S. baptized, faith-filled couples who have struggled with multiple miscairrages in their lives after believing for YEARS to have children. Certain people have had the nerve to suggest it was because of their lack of faith. (Lucky for them it wasn’t in my presence or it may have resulted in a fist in their mouth)
I have prayed with total reprobate sinners who dishonor God and seen them get healed from things as small as headaches, to legs growing out.
I have also stood at the bedside of my dying grandfather, a God fearing Christian man, praying with him with more faith than I had before or since for his complete healing, and watched as an infection ravaged his body and he wasted away in front of my eyes.
And in it all I say God is glorified. He gives and takes away. Jesus has overcome sin and death, it is true. The Father blesses his children, for sure. His purpose and plan for us is His best for us. Let us walk in our individual callings and destiny that would help the corporate body of Christ grow and glorify the name of Jesus.
To Him, and HIm alone, be the glory.
bedtime
Filed under: life, theology | 16 Comments
Tags: Christianity, Faith, God, God Takes Away, prosperity, Religion, theology
I don’t think I have ever heard it put any better than that. We always feel like we are owed something. Like answers. Why do certain things happen to some and not others. But we are just not meant to understand everything. If we did we wouldn’t need God. God purpose and plan for us IS the BEST for us! He gives us the choice what kind of life we want to live. One for the world or one for Him. To me that is an obvious answer, but for others it is more difficult.
Bravo and Amen.
If this isn’t a hotlink on Saturday for Clayton’s blog, I don’t know what is. I hope many people can read and understand what you are saying.
Great post!
“I, as a rule, think we as Americans are pretty stupid and believe we need much more than we actually do.”
Kudos. I hesitate to say it (lest some redneck patriot with a shotgun should accuse me of being a terrorist), but I don’t really like America very much. I’m just as guilty of selfishness as the next guy, but I’m aware of it and I try not to be. We need to learn to fear God, because he can take away if he so pleases. God is loving and merciful but let’s not forget his wrath.
Careful Arthur, I’m related to that guy.
Sometimes I don’t like some Americans, but I honestly love them and this nation. I think we are so blessed and reaping the blessing of an amazing heritage of predominantly godly people who worked very hard. With all our faults, I love this nation and think we got it better than anyone else in this world.
However, with all that abundance comes a sense of entitlement that we all have to be careful of adopting. I agree with you about God’s wrath, but I continue to repent on behalf of myself and this nation and ask for his grace and mercy to be extended to it and my life as well.
Well, I sure wish I had saved my response to you on that other blog since those comments were somewhat directed at me and I typed a small novel in response.
I will try to be more succinct here, but I will probably not do a very good job of it. haha
First I believe your exposition of Job is incorrect. It says Job did not sin in CHARGING God with wrongdoing. It does not say he was right, nor does it say he was wrong at least not there. Later it does(more on that in a sec). It also does not say he did not charge God with wrong doing, it says quite plainly he didn’t sin WITH charging God with wrongdoing. To make the conclusion he didn’t charge God with wrongdoing is contradictory to the verse. I think we need to be very careful how we interpret this because Job quite clearly didn’t sin in charging God, but some knowledge of Job and his place in this world I think gives more clarity to this. Job first of all is a narrative, nothing more. Also Job had ZERO covenant with God, none whatsoever. He did not have the law, and did not live under covenant with God. Also Job had no scripture to rely on and learn the things of God. These are key points because later in the book God absolutely charges Job with making incorrect statements and Job admits he said things that were not true.
We have to understand that just because someone says something in the Bible does not make it truth. There are plenty of examples of this. It is true that they said it, but neccessarily a true statement.
I think it is a big mistake to base major portions of our theology on the book of Job. Now don’t get me wrong, we must rightly divide the entire Book of Truth and we can not dismiss or discount any of it, but that means entire book. I just get the feeling people cling way to hard to Job, and to words spoken by Job that may or may not have been truth. I think that is dangerous ground especially considering what we know about Job, and in light of the rest of scripture.
As far as being arrogant thinking God is concerned with our individualistic wants and needs I think that is off base as well. “if your earthly father would give good gifts how much more would heavenly father give”. He knew us before the foundations of the earth. He knows every hair on our head. I think he absolutely knows all of my needs, wants and desires of my heart. I think he knows them because he is my heavenly father and he loves me with the purest love and is concerned for my welfare, but I also think he knows them because I spend time with him and tell him. ( To clarify I am not talking about new cars and mansions here and I don’t think you were either, forgive me if I am wrong)
As far as faith is concerned I too agree we have to be extremely careful of condemning folks for a lack of faith. There are just too many factors at play that we do not know. We do not know what is happening in the spirit realm in detail. Daniel comes to mind when illustrating this. His prayer was heard an answered the moment he lifted it to God, but Gabriel battled for 21 days with the prince of Babylon to get it to him.
I think most people miss the mark greatly on suffering and calamity. I think attributing it to God is a direct ploy of our enemy Satan (not saying you here). I know that kind of talk isn’t always received well, but it saddens me that people attribute bad things in their life to God and rarely talk about our enemy the devil. I think the devil loves this and uses it to his advantage. Christians so rarely understand their authority in this life, and as a result they do not confront their real enemy head on. To me it is a an easy way out to just attribute bad things to God, and say things like it is for “his glory” or “well God must be wanting to show me something through this sickness”. That isn’t the Jesus I know. Jesus was and is the healer. He is the same yesterday today and forever. He is our provider and we are not living under the law of the old covenant. We are redeemed from the curse of the law.
Maybe it is for a lack of faith that people aren’t whole. I am certainly not the one to make that determination and would never try. Like I said many factors could be at play and I know I am not nearly smart enough to figure it out, but it is absolutely one possible factor. Faith is just a fancy word for what we believe. Frankly if you believe in your theology that bad things(sickness/calamity) come from God, and that God may or may not heal you then I believe your faith suffers. I don’t see how it can’t. I would rather believe with all my heart, in all my doctrine and theology that God is going to heal me(in fact already has healed me through the work of Christ on the cross), that he is going to see me through whatever trial I am facing, and that through it I will learn and grow in my faith and walk with him, not because he was the author of it, but because He is teaching me as He guides and shows me the way out of it. I will give Him glory in the victory. Again for clarity I am not talking about persecution and suffering for being a Christian and for spreading the gospel. The scripture is very clear that we will suffer for His names sake.
Furthermore, OT folks didn’t have the H.S. living on the inside of them. They didn’t have the covering of Jesus blood. They did not have Jesus interceding for them. WE DO!! Praise God. We were “risen with Him and seated in heavenly places”. That means now, not to come, but now. “He was given all authority for the benefit of the church which is his body”. We are the body of Christ today, right now. The power that flows through Him is flowing in us. We are joint heirs, sons and daughters, kings and lords. Jesus is our King and he is our head. If my head is Jesus my feet are full of power. Knowing God sent His only son for my redemption, knowing Jesus is the healer, knowing I am redeemed and a son of God a joint heir, who am I to say God is allowing calamity or sickness in my life, after all He has done for me when I was yet a sinner? I can’t and I won’t. When I stand before Him I would rather be wrong in the fact that I believed that all Good came from Him and he never “allowed”(i realize we could go round and round about “allow”) or put bad things upon me. I would rather stand before Him and say father I know you loved me, and I never attributed the trials of my life to you. I didn’t always understand them and I saught your guidance, your grace, your wisdom to see me through them, and in the victory I gave YOU the glory.
Finally, we do have a covenant with God and it is not just the new covenant but the perfection of the old. Under that covenant we are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and that blood covers us from the wrath of God. That doesn’t mean we don’t open the door for bad in our lives through sin, and that doesn’t mean that the devil doesn’t attack us, he surely does. So trials, calamity and sickness can surely come our way. We live in a fallen world where sin is prevalent and the devil is still the prince of this world, but he no longer has that authority over Christians because he has been defeated. We have to excercise our authority though or he will continue to attack us and defeat us.
Ok I wrote another novel.
By the way thanks for stopping by my blog. Hope to see you around more often. I hope you don’t mind but I may use a portion of this post as a blog on my site. I can link back or not, whichever you prefer.
Holy cow Nathan, another 34 words and you would have met the 1500 word requirement for a bonus prize from Toys-R-Us.
Again, I always appreciate the challenge. I will try to briefly answer as many of your points as I can. If I miss any, let me know. DOn’t expect much scripture, this is totally off the cuff. Also, please don’t mistake brevity for callousness. I’m aiming for a Sunday nap still
I think our reactions to God are very similar. And I also think your theology is closer to mine than you realize. (for sure it is closer to mine than it is to my boys Adam and Ross) Let me just say it once and for all: God is good. He is always good, has always been good, and will always be good. He is immutable (never changes, boys and girls). He can have nothing to do with evil. Therefore no temptation or cause of sin comes from him. (James 1)
I honestly haven’t read Job while contemplating covenantal theology. Good brain teaser, though I don’t think it applies to this blog. If that doesn’t become apparent with the rest of this comment, feel free to call me on it. In a nutshell I would argue that God never changes and therefore has always been loving to his kids (us).
That being said, I do agree that we should not base any theology on one scripture, thats why I’m not a rapture guy. Hmm. maybe that can be my next theology thursday post- I digress…
Starting at the beginning of your comment, Job was CHARGING God. He was charging Him with giving and taking away. Now giving and taking away is either wrongdoing or it isn’t. Therefore, if Job charged God with giving and taking away and scripture says that Job did not charge Him with wrongdoing, then we can deduce that God giving and taking away is not wrongdoing and therefore a completely righteous act, as is anything God so chooses to do.
I also don’t think any of us can get around is what is shown with God allowing Satan to wreck shop in Job’s life. Either God is totally in control, or He isn’t. I believe He is and I also think the entirety of the book of Job is about the sovereignty of God. He can intervene in any situation He wants to.
As I recall, Job isn’t rebuked for how he describes God, but rather due to the condition of his heart during the discussion with his friends. (if that’s wrong feel free to correct)
I agree, God loves us immensely and cares about the intimate details in our lives, but He cares about His glory more. Our western culture (which I love) has misread scripture at times and claimed many promises as personal ones when they were never intended that way, as can be seen by reading those promises in context.
As a father, He also loves us so much that he disciplines us like any good father, which I believe we in the charismatic world label an attack from satan too quickly sometimes.
I would agree that sin and calamity shouldn’t’ be attributed to God. I said at the beginning God is good. God is not the cause of evil. He cannot commit evil. He is the antithesis of evil. Scripture points to the world being jacked up due to sin. Sin changed everything. Everything that is wrong (even natural disasters) can be traced to sin. However, nothing happens outside of the scope of the power of God, including suffering. Therefore He must be allowing it.
So the question arises why would a loving god allow “bad things” to happen to Christians? We can explain it for non believers, but why Christians? Well I’ve already said I think some of it is discipline. And I would agree that some of it is due to a lack of faith and walking in the victory and authority that is guaranteed to us when we become a child of the living God.
But might there be an additional reason? I think so. I think God is no more glorified than He is when, in the midst of suffering, a person chooses to fix their eyes on him and regardless of what is going around in and around them, they simply worship God. They love on Him and others see this and are drawn to Him. Is God the source of the pain? No. But, pain is the biggest catalyst for change. And maybe, just maybe, when it occurs, God, in His sovereignty, finds a way to bring more glory to himself.
He deserves our worship. He deserves all honor and glory. He is in control.
so much for the nap.
for some supplemental reading for us all:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/sermons/bydate/1985/499_Job_Rebuked_in_Suffering/
Yep we are close in our thinking/theology. I certainly said enough already and made my statement on where I stand so need to re-hash it.
I do think it is extremely important to realize that Job was not covered in covenant and especially not by the blood of Jesus. Jesus death and resurrection provided us for many things other than just salvation, one being dominion in this earth. The same dominion that was given to Adam, who handed it to Satan, was taken back by Christ and delegated to us. In rightly dividing the Word I think we have to take this into account when discussing Job and the calamity that befell him.
As far as “allowing” like I said we could certainly discuss just what that entails at length. Probably a conversation much better had in person. So we dont have to go back and forth and back and forth…LOL. I would contest that what many think is being “allowed” is simply natural and spiritual laws set forth by God, who never goes back on his Word. These laws dictate what can and cannot happen in this world until Christ return.
I still disagree that Job did not charge God with wrongdoing. That is not my interpretation of that scripture. I read that he did not sin in making the charge. I also think it is an erroneous jump to conclude that “scripture teaches that God takes away”. Certainly not based on Job’s words for reasons previously discussed.
yeah i didn’t address “allowing” thats is another discussion.
I’ll do some thinking on the covenant.
Wholeheartedly agree God is bound by His word. (But when we throw in God’s omniscience, that affects whole God allowing, because He knew in advance)
Come on baby, lets take dominion! Its good to find another dominion guy.
Look at you… starting fights.
holy moly, I don’t know how I missed those essays, but I’m just seeing them now. Good stuff.
I think that comment was longer than the post.
I really enjoyed what you wrote! I found it in trying to sustain my argument that in fact God DOES give and take away. So often people have trouble with the taking away part. I really need to blog about this myself, but I have such a hard time finding blog time.
“How arrogant we (me the worst of all) sometimes get. Thinking that God is totally consumed with our individualistic wants and “needs.” I, as a rule, think we as Americans are pretty stupid and believe we need much more than we actually do. For me to think that because of my faith God gives me more than others is a little slippery. Financial and physical blessing is not the best indicator of faith.”
YES!! I can’t hold the attitude “Why me?” The very question “Why me?” is so arrogant! I am a sinner, deserving of hell, no less. I do not deserve the many blessings in my life. Yes, I have nearly died several times. Yes, I have lost children, I have been raped, my grandparents died when I was a young child, my parents are dying far too young….and my surviving children have autism. But I am not so haughty to think that for some reason I am above tragedy. OR should be above it. God is mighty and sovereign, and I live in a fallen and imperfect world. The Bible is also clear that we are to BLESS GOD for His will in our lives, INCLUDING trials and calamities. How can we do that? Well, if we will stop taking our eyes off of ME, MYSELF AND I, and look at the bigger picture, we will always see God working, transforming tragedy into blessing, beauty from ashes.
“I will land this plane by giving some personal examples. I have known several God-fearing, H.S. baptized, faith-filled couples who have struggled with multiple miscairrages in their lives after believing for YEARS to have children. Certain people have had the nerve to suggest it was because of their lack of faith. (Lucky for them it wasn’t in my presence or it may have resulted in a fist in their mouth)
I have prayed with total reprobate sinners who dishonor God and seen them get healed from things as small as headaches, to legs growing out. ”
Again, yes and amen! My dad has had cancer since I was a child. He is still alive, but struggling very much with pain. He went through a period of time where he went to Benny Hinn and other faith healers and claimed to all that he IS healed. He believed with all his heart that he was healed, and this was after a friend of ours died of cancer, also claiming that there was NO cancer! They had all the faith, all the right prayers, and lived a Godly life. But it wasn’t enough. Why not? Because it was not in God’s will. Yet, he is still alive, with cancer but very much alive, so many years after she died. A good friend of mine died last year very suddenly of a cancer she didn’t know she had, leaving behind a husband, a newborn and four other young children. So again it shows that God’s will is very specific. While my friend was dying I couldn’t go see her because I had sick children but I would talk to her on the phone and she was always full of faith and strength. To God be the glory! It was an inspiration to talk to this woman who knew she would very possibly not be miraculously healed, and yet rejoiced because her faith in God was so strong.
Back to your analogy of faith filled couples having multiple miscarriages- Last year God led us to trust HIM in “our” family planning, that He is the perfect planner! We already had 4 beautiful little girls and hoped and prayed that in our obedience to Him, He would give us a son…perhaps even twins! I know, I was crazy in thinking that LOL but that was a desire (I believe God placed.) I was pregnant in May 2008 and we had a freak accident in our 2008 Ford 12 passenger van. We hit a tree and the van rolled. The van was very squashed and it was amazing that we made it out without any injuries (only slight cuts from the windows when they pulled us out since the van was still upside down. for pics and the full story http://springolife.trostfamily.org/?page_id=59
Well, as is common, following the accident I miscarried. Our first “let God have control” baby was gone. I got pregnant soon after. I felt like it was twins but didn’t say anything. My then 5 YO daughter said it was twins and I hoped she was right. We had our first ultrasound, and there were two sacks! It was too early to be sure about the babies, but definitely there were two sacks. Four weeks later they couldn’t find even ONE heartbeat at my OB apt, so off to the U/S room I went. By myself. That seemed to be the longest hour of my life, waiting to see if my babies were alive or gone to be with Jesus. With having three previous miscarriages you might think I’d grown accustomed to such losses but I hadn’t. I wasn’t worried or upset, but certainly prayed the whole time. There was one strong heart beat! We rejoiced, but were saddened to have lost another child.
And then, at 40 weeks gestation, we lost the other one. One cannot come remotely close to describing how it feels to have a stillbirth. Yet, as I held my beautiful little boy in my arms, my first thoughts were of PRAISE! Yes, I was praising God for my son. I miss him terribly, but am thankful for the time I had with him. Many people try to convince me that this was NOT God’s will that God DOESN’T take life, especially not that of babies. We have a free will therefore we have the power to give and take life. How selfish and godlike we can make ourselves!
I don’t understand why, when I gave my womb and my heart to God, He gave me three dead babies. It doesn’t make sense to me. But God just doesn’t operate in this finite human reasoning. And I am certainly not above such tragedy, as I have stated before.
You might be interested in this family, who lost their son AND their daughter and yet still have faith that God is in control. http://www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3781475&ct=7045183
May you have peace, love, and live in His Eternal Light,
Sarah Trost
you’ll be getting a pingback on this- I decide to use my response as an introduction to the topic, especially if I never get around to actually writing something about it!
I’d like to recommend the book “Trusting God Even When Life Hurts” by Jerry Bridges. It gets into these sorts of topics at depth.
This post was EXACTLY what I needed to read. Although you wrote it a year and a bit ago…it’s definitely speaking to me today. thank you